ABC News Breakfast interview
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Today Trade Minister Steve Ciobo willdeliver a speech in Melbourne outlining what our future looks like and, ofcourse, our involvement in the so-called One Road, One Belt initiative out ofChina. Mr. Ciobo joins us now in the studio. Minister, good morning, thanks forjoining us.
STEVEN CIOBO: Good to be with you, Virginia.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: With all of those elements in play and such extraordinaryuncertainty, what's the one key way that Australia can punch through on a tradebasis?
STEVEN CIOBO: Diversification. We need to make sure that we continue toengage not only with our region, but more broadly across the world. That's whyright now we've got underway negotiations with the European Union, we've gotnegotiations underway with Latin American countries. We've already got, ofcourse, the foundation stones of our trade relationship, the big bilateralrelationships that we have with China, with Japan, with Korea, with the UnitedStates. All of that about maximizing opportunities for Australian businesses toexport to the world.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: That, of course, is how it plays out in an ideal world.But when you've got these fluxes in place and when we basically, to be honesthere, used to get knocked to the sidelines a bit because they're the biggerplayers. What actually is the power and influence that we have? Can youspecifically define that for us this morning? About how we get through.
STEVEN CIOBO: Australia's very committed, of course, to themultilateral trading system. So in other words, the World Trade Organization.We don't wanna revert back to a world where might is right. We want to be in aworld where there are rules that everyone can abide by, and know that that'sgoing to be the best approach on trade.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: I get that, but my question goes to something else.
STEVEN CIOBO: Sure.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Which is, when you've got these big players, in this hugePunch and Judy match, and we still want to be able to come in and trade at somelevel, what's the specific power and influence we have? Can you describe it forus?
STEVEN CIOBO: I don't think it's about power and influence, Virginia. Ithink what it's about-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Because you're going to need to have some of that-
STEVEN CIOBO: What I'm saying is, what it's actually about is ourability to mobilise and to be able to secure trade deals, and that's what we'vedone. You know, what you're saying and highlighting with respect to, you know, theUnited States and China, absolutely is the case, but if you look at-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And also, also Britain and the European Union becausethey're so caught up in that, themselves.
STEVEN CIOBO: Sure. But if you look at the results, the run record, soto speak, over the past several years, it's been outstanding. And we've donetrade deals now, the most significant one, making sure that we've maintainedand kept in place the TPP-11, the Trans-Pacific Partnership 11, which gives usaccess to trillions and trillions of dollars of economic activity. But nowwe've been able to capitalise on Australia's standing globally, to put in placenegotiations with huge markets, including the European Union, 500 millionpeople; bilateral discussions with the UK, for when they formally exit.Indonesia, Hong Kong, Peru, Pacific Alliance countries; Mexico, Columbia,Chile, Peru, so it's a long list. But I'll go back to the point, which is it's allabout driving exports, because ultimately, if we can export more as a country,we earn more as a country, and we create more employment here in Australia.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: And we know that a release has been a put out thismorning, I think by the Foreign Minister, on the trilateral arrangement now,which takes in the Memorandum of Understanding, that's been signed betweenAustralia and China, over their so-called One Belt, One Road infrastructureprogram. The Government is refusing to release the agreement that it's signedwith China, the details of it-
STEVEN CIOBO: That's not strictly true, actually.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Let me ask my question, and you can clarify it for me.
STEVEN CIOBO: Sure.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Okay. As we understand it, you've been FOI'd over thatMOU, and the reason we were given that the specific MOU won't be released is,and quote, "it could upset Beijing". Explain to us this morning if you're notdoing that, or better, you can tell us what you actually are doing. How, ifthat's the case, if that doesn't confirm everyone's suspicions about thisarrangement being one of secrecy, a lack of transparency, and China's worryingpower in the region. So, first of all tell us what you are doing, if that'swrong?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, it's wrong because, the simple fact is that itrequires both parties to agree, and China hasn't agreed to releasing it. Sothat's the reason why. It's not that the Australian Government doesn't want itreleased, it's that China has not agreed to release it.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Let me ask you then, at the time of signing, did your Government,our Government, stipulate that the MOU should be made publicly available, anddid China disagree?
STEVEN CIOBO: Look, I would need to find out about that, off the top ofmy head I can't answer that question, Virginia, but-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, as I understand from a report this morning in the Fairfaxpress, that question has been asked of the Government, but you guys haven't gotback with an answer. So would you like to answer now?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, I just said to you. I'm very happy to go back andfind out what-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: So, in the intervening time, you've not tried to find outan answer to that?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, what, who the journalist spoke to at the Departmentof Foreign Affairs, I don't know if we can find that out-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But wouldn't that be a key understanding? You would knowthat, wouldn't you?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, hang on Virginia. Hang on, hang on. Just let meanswer some of your questions, rather than pepper me with 20 questions and don'tgive me a chance to answer.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Well, you gave me your answer, you just said you don'tknow and you haven't found out.
STEVEN CIOBO: So, again, I'll answer the question, rather than. You askthem, and I'm happy to answer them. So my point is simply this, that when Isigned the MOU with China on the BRI, Belt and Road Initiative, of courseAustralia remains absolutely committed to making sure we can be part ofregional movements to improve the lot of Asia. Now, China's got a vision abouthow to do that, that's through BRI. The MOU that I signed with China, and bearin mind it is a Memorandum of Understanding. It's not a commitment to dosomething, it's a memorandum, a fundamental issue around principles. And thatwas for cooperation between Australia and China in third countries, where wethink that there's benefit for both of us to be able to work together.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Sure.
STEVEN CIOBO: Now, I actually signed the document, of course, I've hadthe chance to read it and peruse it, and there's nothing in there that causesme particular concern. But to go back to the mechanics of what you were asking-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: So, I will jump in there, because I say what you'resaying then, actually makes less and less and less of a case for not making itabsolutely public.
STEVEN CIOBO: And you know what, and take that up with the Chinese Government.But from Australia's perspective, I'm very happy for that to be out there. Butit requires the agreement of both parties, and so China needs to agree torelease it as well.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But you see the problem. So this is actually what is inthe minds of so many Australians, and indeed in the minds of our intelligenceagencies, that there is so much secrecy from the Chinese end that theAustralian Government would even agree to go ahead, and say okay, no, let mefinish-
STEVEN CIOBO: Sure.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: We would like to have this released, it's important tous, we agree with transparency, it matters to the private sector here inAustralia. Oh, you won't agree to release it, oh well, fine. That's bothersome.Do you see that?
STEVEN CIOBO: Look, I mean the Australian Government, of course,operates on very different principles to the Chinese Government-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: So how can we have faith in the process in that way if wecan't even see the MOU?
STEVEN CIOBO: I'm not going to lecture the Chinese Government about howthey should conduct their internal affairs. That's up to China. I could bringan approach of transparency from the Australian Government perspective and I'mvery happy to do that. But ultimately, Virginia, if you're saying, well 'whydoesn't Australia tell China how to act'? Well look, ultimately that's up tothe Chinese Government.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: In relation to deals with us, yes. In relation to do withAustralia, yes.
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, in relation to the MOU, I think what matters mostto Australian businesses is, and what I genuinely think matters most toAustralian businesses, is that they have the opportunity to participate ininfrastructure provisioning across the region. That's what I'm focused on. Ifwe can get more Australian businesses involved in that side of being involvedin infrastructure for the region, that's going to be good for Australian businessand good for Australian workers.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: I can imagine many people are thinking, only if it istransparent and corruption free and I guess, we'll-
STEVEN CIOBO: But those principles, of course. Virginia, if you'resuggesting that the Australian Government would sign up to something thatpromotes corruption or promotes principles that run against those principlesthe Australian Government operates, well, of course, that's not the case.That's completely false. And I just made specific reference to that just before.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Let me ask you about the aftermath of the Super Saturday.You know better than others that you have to have a, you know, big vote inSouth East Queensland in order to you know, take the election and to win. Whyare those voters in that part of the world so enamored of One Nation, and notyou?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, I don't think that's the case. We, of course-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: A good 17 per cent for One Nation.
STEVEN CIOBO: -and you know what, and we see a fair chunk of that wasflying back to Labor. So it's not about being more than the Coalition or morethan Labor. But the fact is that we all need to demonstrate that ultimately,government in Australia is either going to be a high taxing Labor Government,or a Coalition that has a lower tax profile. That's the fundamental choice.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: That's not what I asked, that's not what I asked you. Whyare they not enamored of you?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, you could easily say why are they not enamored ofthe Labor Party as well?
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: I'll ask that of them. Of you, I'll ask, why are they notenamored with you?
STEVEN CIOBO: Obviously, I disagree with the assertion in yourquestion. I mean, I do think that the Coalition-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But you didn't pick up a seat so they mustn't be.
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, it was a by-election. A Government hasn't won aby-election for 98 years.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But you were there campaigning, hoping that you wouldn't;didn't you-
STEVEN CIOBO: Let's not pretend. Of course. We're always going tocampaign, hoping to pick up a seat-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: But you can't have it both ways, you can't say oh youknow, history will never let us win.
STEVEN CIOBO: Virginia that's ridiculous. The fact is, the Governmentis always-
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: I guess you should never campaign in by-elections then?
STEVEN CIOBO: -gonna put its best foot forward. Always. But to suggestthat because we didn't pick up a seat, as indeed no government has for 98years, that that in some way, you know, is an upset of the apple cart, I meanthat's preposterous.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Steve Ciobo, would you like to see this final bit of thecompany tax cuts policy ditched?
STEVEN CIOBO: No, I absolutely think the Coalition will always be lowertaxing than Labor. We have got to make sure that we are competitive globally,because if we are not competitive globally, that money will go to othercounties around the world, and Australia will suffer the consequences.
VIRGINIA TRIOLI: Steve Ciobo, good to talk to you, thank you.
STEVEN CIOBO: Good to speak with you.