BBC Radio 4, Today
NICK ROBINSON: Minister, in advance of the British referendum your Prime Minister said it would be a very big shock. Now you have come here, how do you see it?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, I think it was a shock for most people. Certainly it appeared from afar that the UK was a little surprised at the outcome. Australia's form with respect to referenda is that traditionally they tend to be the way of "No". But look, from afar and from actually being here, there is clearly a sense of energy. A number of people have indicated to me that the impact hasn't been as profound as perhaps they thought it was going to be. I saw the PMI number came out yesterday, which obviously was - it's only one sample, but it's nonetheless a positive story. So I've got to say the feeling on the ground from being over here for the past 24, 48 hours or so is quite positive.
NICK ROBINSON: When you met the ministers who will eventually be involved in negotiating new trade deals with Australia, how prepared did they appear to be to begin that work?
STEVEN CIOBO: It's very early days. There's clearly a lot that needs to be put in place, a lot of the mechanics and machinery of government, the creation of a new department in terms of trade negotiators and all the structure associated with that. That's clearly underway. Ultimately, from Australia's perspective, we want to do a deal with the UK when the time is right. The timing around that will in many respects be dictated by the UK. The discussions with the EU, the nature of those, the length of them, has all yet to be determined.
NICK ROBINSON: So in other words, any deal with Australia has to wait until Britain has settled its new relationship with the EU?
STEVEN CIOBO: My formal advice - and this is from the UK side - is that the UK is unable to negotiate or sign an agreement prior to the formal exit from the EU.
NICK ROBINSON: Can you still do something? In other words, can you do shadow negotiations and prepare? Can you scope?
STEVEN CIOBO: We can certainly have preliminary discussions, and that's part of what I'm doing here this week - preliminary discussions around what a post-Brexit Australia-UK trade deal might look like, some discussions about what our ambitions and aspirations are, and there has been good alignment in terms of those conversations.
NICK ROBINSON: But no deal until Britain has done its deal with Brussels and the other EU countries?
STEVEN CIOBO: That's been the consistent advice that's been given to me.
NICK ROBINSON: So that does mean some years off.
STEVEN CIOBO: Based upon what I've been told, if Article 50 is presented in Q1 or Q2 next year ---
NICK ROBINSON: Quarter 2?
STEVEN CIOBO: Yes, Quarter 1 or Quarter 2 next year, and then a two-year window in relation to that. So you would expect that it's at least two and a half years off.
NICK ROBINSON: But then would there not be many months, if indeed not years, of tough negotiations between British and Australian negotiators to get that trade deal agreed?
STEVEN CIOBO: They won't necessarily have to be tough negotiations. I think with our strong historical bond we should be able to make a meal of it quite quickly. Look, we'll see. Clearly there are more preliminary discussions to be had. We'll continue and advance those discussions and they'll help inform, as I said, how long it is post the formal Brexit until we're able to put an agreement in place.
NICK ROBINSON: But some people may imagine, they may hope, that a day, a week, maybe a month after Brexit is formalised a new deal with Australia would be done. By the sounds of it, that is very optimistic.
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, that's ultimately a decision for the UK. As I said, the timing has got to work around the UK's ability to, one, negotiate their exit from the EU and, two, the application of resource and discussions with Australia and potentially other "suitors", for lack of a better term, in terms of what that might look like. So it's not for me to dictate to the UK on that aspect of timing. All I can indicate is Australia's desire to engage with the UK, as expressed best by our respective Prime Ministers at the G20 in China at the weekend.
NICK ROBINSON: One thing it can do is advise on how difficult, or easy, it is as an independent country to do trade deals. Australia has done it with China recently. You're trying to do it with the EU at the moment. Just how difficult a process is it?
STEVEN CIOBO: Negotiating trade deals is fraught with complexity. There's always domestic sensitivities between negotiating parties, concerns and consideration that needs to be given to particular industries or particular approaches or certain regulatory frameworks, but it's important that you also don't get too caught up in the detail. By that what I mean is that on a political level there's got to be the ability to raise your eyes from the detail, to have the aspiration, to have the ambition, to have the vision about what it is that you're trying to accomplish, and to direct negotiators to fulfil that mandate. That is ultimately what has proven to be a successful approach for Australia. We are clearly pragmatic in terms of our ability to deal with sensitivities. Ultimately, it's the belief, it's the knowledge that these trade deals help boost national prosperity, help drive jobs, help drive growth, that we know underpins our success over the last 25 or more years and into the future as well.
NICK ROBINSON: Britain hasn't negotiated a trade deal for 40 years. Australia has. Did they ask you for the loan of the odd negotiator?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, I indicated that, if a request was forthcoming, Australia would certainly be willing to help. I made the passing quip to Secretary Fox that I thought if they were going to have negotiations with Australia that they would probably go very smoothly if it was Australians on all sides of the negotiating table. But look, ultimately, we're happy to provide whatever support we can.
NICK ROBINSON: In all reality, aren't Australian businesses saying to you "Sort the EU out first" because they are a bigger source of trade for you than the UK on its own?
STEVEN CIOBO: Look, they're important markets. The EU is much more advanced in terms of where we're at. We've had discussions in relation to a scoping study. In fact the scoping study itself is nearing its conclusion. The first hurdle with respect to the EU-Australia potential FTA will be whether at the conclusion of that scoping study there is the ability for Australia and the EU to formally commence our FTA negotiations. It's my desire that that happens. I would certainly like that to happen. The EU is a very important trading partner for Australia, as well as a key source of investment into Australia, and a destination for investment from Australia.
NICK ROBINSON: But Brexit poses a problem for Australia, doesn't it? A lot of your business, a lot of your trade, has come through this country into the EU, and that door is about to shut, so you need a new friend in the EU.
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, we've got good friends and good relationships with the European Union. Cecilia Malmström, my counterpart in the EU, is certainly very keen to engage with Australia. We've had great conversations. I think there's a high level of ambition with respect to both the EU's approach to an FTA and Australia's. So ultimately I think that, although what you say is true about the UK being, for lack of a better term, a "launching pad" for many Australian businesses into the EU, we have very solid relationships across Continental Europe as well as with the UK.
NICK ROBINSON: I suppose what I'm asking you is: "Isn't there pressure from Australian business to say 'Let's rush and get a new relationship with the EU ourselves. Britain can wait. We know they'll be fine. History will help with that. You need this friendship with the EU now'?"
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, it's not for us to dictate, again, the timing on that. Certainly I can indicate the ambition. I can indicate the aspiration that Australian has. As I've indicated, I want to commence FTA negotiations in the first half of next year with the EU. That commencement of negotiations with the EU, if it comes to pass - and I hope it will - will certainly happen before we do something with the UK.
NICK ROBINSON: Maybe as much as two years ---?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, that's just a statement of fact. You know, when each concludes is an entirely separate story and I can't possibly predict what would happen there.
NICK ROBINSON: I suspect you're far too young to actually remember the decision of the UK to join the common market, but it was seen in Australia, was it not, as Britain in a sense shutting the door on Australia by shutting the door on the Commonwealth? How does it feel now? As if we're now shutting the door on Europe? Is there a sort of odd sense that history repeats itself in reverse?
STEVEN CIOBO: No, not really. I think that, you know, what happened decades ago and what's happening today -- although there is in the memories of some some causality, the fact is that we deal with the cards we are dealt. In that respect the decision by the UK to formally exit the UK provides opportunity. We want to capitalise on that opportunity. The great thing about trade negotiations is that they are not win-lose arrangements. They are win-win arrangements. Recognising that, recognising the potential that we have now with the UK, is an exciting prospect.
NICK ROBINSON: Let's bring it down right to the level of the consumer rather than the trade negotiator. What could this be? Cheaper Australian wine here?
STEVEN CIOBO: Look, absolutely. Cheaper Australian wine, I think, is a good fringe benefit of an FTA if we're able to put one in place.
NICK ROBINSON: More Australians working in the UK because you'll not face the same immigration controls?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, clearly immigration is a sensitive issue here in the UK and, according to various commentators, they accord different levels of weighting to the impact that that had on the Brexit referendum. From my perspective, the biggest benefits that flow from FTAs deal with reducing compliance costs, less red tape for businesses, more opportunity for there to be proper engagement and, frankly, efficient allocation of capital - in other words, we're not misdirecting resources towards jumping through hoops or having to, you know, fill out Form A and Form B and all these types of matters - plus we can actually, each country, play to our respective strengths, both in terms of trade of goods, of manufactured items, as well as services. Ultimately, the UK and Australia are both developed and mature economies. We can complete well. Consumers benefit from that competition and that's the outcome that we're in pursuit of.
NICK ROBINSON: Just finally, you used an intriguing phrase in a speech you gave last night. You said that Brexit was reshaping the whole geopolitical landscape. Really? What did you mean?
STEVEN CIOBO: Well, certainly with respect to Europe that's the case. A lot of people are watching Brexit. It comes at a time of significant volatility across Europe. We continue to see a lot of uncertainty about what might happen on Continental Europe, uncertainty about what's going to happen politically with the United States, for example, with the Presidential election. So we know globally there are big question marks in so many different areas and this is almost at the point, certainly in my lifetime, where it's unprecedented. The Brexit decision - the decision to withdraw from the EU - is going to have a big impact on that. We'll see, for lack of a better term, how the "experiment" goes and ultimately where it leads us.
NICK ROBINSON: Minister, thank you very much indeed.
STEVEN CIOBO: My pleasure. Thank you.
[ends]